Around the Horn: Fixed Income Roundtable with UBS Asset Management
The desk posits that fixed income markets are currently navigating through significant geopolitical uncertainty, which requires careful selection by investors. Per the full note from UBS Asset Management, key portfolio managers expressed concerns about potential market instability stemming from both macroeconomic variables and geopolitical tensions. This implies that prudent positioning in fixed income will be essential for portfolio resilience in the face of rising risks. The UBS team highlighted that despite these challenges, there are still opportunities in sectors like U.S. Corporate Fixed Income that investors should not overlook.
What the desk is arguing
The desk frames this as a crucial moment for investors in fixed income spaces, particularly given the uncertainty that is prevalent in the current economic landscape. Portfolio managers at UBS suggest that navigating these waters requires not just awareness but also strategic positioning within the fixed income market, notably in corporate bonds and municipal securities.
The commentary notes, with a blend of apprehension and opportunity, that right now is not the time for complacency. Given the prevailing market conditions, the UBS team emphasizes that investors should focus on quality securities which can weather the market's volatility effectively.
Where it sits in our coverage
Our consensus for the U.S. dollar against major currencies, such as EUR (1.075 with a range of 1.04 to 1.12), aligns closely with the cautious positioning suggested by jpmorgan and bofa, both of whom are currently re-evaluating their strategies in light of recent market developments. Notably, jpmorgan has set a target of 1.10 for March 2026, supporting a more optimistic outlook compared to bofa's lower target of 1.04 for the same period.
The desk's call reflects a nuanced understanding of market dynamics, which aligns with the broader consensus yet suggests a more tactical approach to securities selection than some firms might advocate.
How other firms see it
Firms such as jpmorgan and goldman align with the notion that opportunities abound in carefully selected sectors of fixed income, while others like bofa express a more cautious, contrarian stance, underscoring potential risks inherent in this market.
It is essential to watch the USD/EUR currency path, especially in relation to comments from the Federal Reserve and other central banks as they navigate their monetary policies amidst the shifting economic landscape. Observations of how these dynamics unfold will be vital for traders focusing on FX flow shifts stemming from fixed income movements.
01Current market conditions necessitate a strategic approach to fixed income investments amid geopolitical uncertainty.
02The UBS Asset Management team's insights highlight both risks and opportunities in sectors like U.S. Corporate Fixed Income.
03Consensus among firms shows a divide between cautious and optimistic projections for currency pairs linked to fixed income assets.
04Monitoring central bank communications will be critical in understanding the evolving macroeconomic environment.
Market implications
Traders should monitor the 1.075 level in the EUR/USD pair closely, as it represents a pivotal point for potential movements. With no significant calendar events until next month, monitoring market trends and shifts in sentiment will be crucial for positioning ahead of any economic releases or policy decisions.
Risks to this view
Any unexpected positive developments in geopolitical tensions or a shift in the Federal Reserve's monetary policy stance could prompt a reevaluation of market risk dynamics, which might invalidate the current bullish sentiment toward corporate fixed income.
ubs
We are back now to continue with their ongoing series around the horn with UBS Asset Management's Fixed Income Team. So I am pleased to welcome this month's featured speakers, top portfolio managers and business heads from Asset Management's Muni Taxable Fixed Income and Liquidity Teams. Today we will hear candidly from them on their views on markets and what they believe you, our financial advisor, should be focused on within the fixed income space.
Joining us for today's roundtable, glad to welcome back Anthony Liotti. Anthony is head of the Fixed Income SMA Advisory Group. Anthony will also serve as our moderator for today's roundtable.
Anthony is joined by Dave Walczak. Dave is Senior Portfolio Manager for Asset Management's Liquidity Strategies. We also have with us Dave Rothweiler, Senior Portfolio Manager for Asset Management's Short Duration and Liquidity Strategies.
We have as well Dave Vignolo, Head of Asset Management's U.S. Corporate Fixed Income Strategies. Patrick Matiewicz, Portfolio Manager for our U.S.
Multi-Sector SMA. David Michael, Portfolio Manager for Emerging Markets, as well as Ryan Nugent, Senior Municipal Bond Portfolio Manager. So with that, Anthony, let me pass it over to you to moderate today's roundtable.
Welcome back. Yeah. Thank you, Dan.
Always good to hear your voice. And welcome to the call, everyone at UBS and potential clients. I'll provide some macro backdrop, but then clearly turn over to the presentation, which are the PMs.
Clearly a lot going on in the market. And I'd say that with all this world uncertainty right now, I'm going to say with 100% certainty two things that will clearly not happen in the future. Number one, I would not expect there to be a ticker tape parade in the Canyon of Heroes in downtown Manhattan on the anniversary of Liberation Day 2026.
And second, I don't think the Powell and Trump families will be spending holidays together anytime soon. That much I think we know, a little tongue in cheek there. The disruption that we've witnessed in global markets over the past couple of weeks really kind of eerily echoed the intensity of past shocks, such as COVID.
But this time it wasn't a virus. It wasn't a credit event. It wasn't a banking sector crisis like an SBB we had seen, or even a sudden shift in Fed policy with, let's say, a tapered tantrum.
It was really just what we witnessed here was the announcement of tariffs. Now clearly, it was anticipated. But the problem was, it was the manner in which the message was delivered.
It was the magnitude of the shift that caught the markets off guard. The abrupt change in tone leaves and raises broader questions. What does this mean for the U.S. economy in the years ahead?
And of course, how will this reshape trade relationships and long-term growth trajectories for the U.S. economy? Yesterday, a very interesting meeting at the Economic Club of Chicago, Fed Chair Powell delivered what we would call a pretty stark assessment, stating that current tariffs were even higher than the Fed's own upside scenario, and as a result, the U.S. economy is likely to drift away from both of its dual mandates, maximum employment and price stability for the balance of the year. He went on to warn that we should expect both unemployment and inflation to rise in the near term, noting that strong jobs growth ultimately depends on maintaining price stability and expressing hope that the economy will get through this period of elevated trade uncertainty.
Not really what you or really the markets were, I'd say, expected to be hearing. When we turn to the economy, I'd say that retail sales and other hard data number have actually held up a bit better than feared. But the soft indicators from business sentiment surveys to consumer confidence readings are really flashing red, and that really has many of us in the bond market just kind of being a bit more patient on making some of these decisions here.
The disconnect suggests that beneath the facade of resilience, both businesses and many households across the country are beginning to hunker down, right? They're bracing for slower growth and maybe tighter economic conditions and the potential for an increase in layoffs. What's amazing to me is that the chatter of American exceptionalism that was so proud and so prominent just a few months ago has many questioning, is it lost?
Not yet. The economy is still doing well, but we have here witnessed as investors are increasingly looking abroad for alternative investments, right? That has been a little bit of a theme here that we've been hearing amongst our clients here is not just in the markets necessarily, the municipals and taxables, but even more so on the equity side.
I think you see it in the currency market, the dollar has just been bleeding its prominence, right? The U.S. consumer does remain the linchpin of growth, excuse me. And as the saying goes, if the U.S. sneezes, the world catches a cold, right?
And even as capital does see greater pastures, a sustained downturn at home would really and clearly reverberate worldwide. So this is, you know, really very interesting times here. Before I turn to PMs, I'll just end with this, looking ahead, I'd say that clearly we've come off of the heightened uncertainty that we were experiencing in the marketplace, right?
I do think it's safe to say that the amount of whirlwind activity is really that we saw its ease, but let's not suggest that we could not revisit this or even really surpass that level in the near future as tariff chatter will once again come back into the marketplace. So with that, let me turn over to the PMs to discuss their views and positionings within their portfolio, and we'll start like we always do on the short end of the curve with my good friend Dave Walsh. Dave, take us away.
Yeah, great. Thanks, Anthony. So while, you know, there has been a lot of volatility in other markets, you know, I think we'd be of the opinion that overall front end markets have been relatively orderly.
Just looking at overnight funding markets as measured by SOFR last week on Wednesday was kind of the peak of stress that we did see in overnight funding markets. We saw SOFR take up to a 4.42, but really since then we've seen a calm down and that was calculated at a 4.31 yesterday, so you can clearly see relief in the overnight funding market since the peak stress of the middle part of last week. But that's not to say, you know, we haven't seen pressure on other levels here in the front end.
In particular, we've seen pressure on bank floating rate levels, but importantly we point out that issuers have been able to print at these wider levels, so it's not a complete buyer strike in terms of folks hoarding cash. There is activity getting done at these wider levels. It is important to keep in mind that seasonally we're in a period of outflows for money market funds due to individual tax payments.
I'm sure many on this call have spent recent days helping their clients facilitate tax payments and, you know, certainly we do expect to see further outflows when the latest industry-wide money market fund data is released later on today. So given these outflows, you know, many money market fund managers were likely cautious with deploying liquidity in anticipation of these outflows. The latest data that we do have in terms of money fund AOM is measured by the ICI through the end or through the middle part of last week.
Assets stood industry-wide at about $7 trillion, which is down $25 billion from the prior week's all-time high. So still, you know, money market fund remains relatively elevated there. But again, you know, we are expecting, you know, further outflows to show up in the figures that are going to be released this week.
But thinking about the Fed, you know, recent messaging, you know, Anthony, you kind of touched on it a little bit with Powell's speech yesterday. But broadly speaking, you know, we've heard from FOMC officials be fairly consistent in terms of stressing patience given all the underlying uncertainty out there, primarily driven by tariffs. You know, Anthony, as you mentioned, again, you know, Powell yesterday reiterated kind of a little bit more of a focus on the inflation side of their dual mandate.
So, you know, perhaps all of us being equal, that causes the Fed to be a little bit more patient here with any further adjustments to policy over the near term. Looking at Fed funds futures, the next meeting in May has only three bips of price cut in or three basis points worth of cuts priced in. So again, the market isn't describing a ton of probability to the Fed moving at their next meeting.
June only has about 19 basis points worth of cuts priced in. And then cumulatively by the end of this year, there's about 90 basis points being priced in to the Fed funds futures market. Looking at front end treasuries, they've been mixed in terms of their changes since our last on-air call.
Tenors up to six months are relatively little change, with the six-month tenor lowered by five bips to $4.19, the one-year tenor lowered by 10 basis points to $3.96, and the two-year part of the curve actually lowered by 21 basis points to around $3.77 currently. And with that, I'll turn it over to Dave Rothbier to talk about the front end credit markets. Yeah.
Thanks so much, Dave. You know, front end spreads hit their wides around April 8th and have stabilized, and the good news is we've ground in over the past few days. But even with the recent fall, the front end has been very resilient and functioning well.
As of yesterday's close, looking at the zero to one B of A indices, we have both positive excess returns in credit as well as positive total returns year-to-date. So looking at the one to three part of the curve a little bit longer, likewise also positive year total return as well as, you know, plus or minus maybe five basis points excess returns in strategies like GovCorp, you know, type of mandates. Given all the vol and so many asset classes, not a bad show for the front end.
In credit, month-to-date and year-to-date, triple Bs have underperformed A to triple A in the one-year space. Heading into this fall, we have and will continue to maintain a more up in quality bias for the time being. Financials have been flat with industrials year-to-date.
Speaking of financials, the big six banks have been coming out with their earnings. Our analyst has commented that so far, overall, Q1 earnings have been in line and they have stable asset quality. Managements have, for the most part, tried to look through the noise caused by tariffs and trade policy and have emphasized, you know, balance sheet strength, which is a bond holder.
You know, if the banks have any kind of issue, it's always an earnings issue followed by later a capital balance sheet issue. So that's important to a bond holder in terms of that balance sheet. Finally, on the duration side, we've been neutral to slightly long.
And as usual with that, I'll hand it over to David Dolan. Thanks, David. Thanks, David.
You know, I'm about the curve on credit. You know, ever since President Trump announced the depth and magnitude of those tariffs, there's definitely been a repricing of risk in the credit market. Spreads have, I'd say, moved to, you know, 15 to 25 basis points wider in general.
And it's more of the cyclical sectors have moved even wider than that. And I think, you know, with that repricing, I mean, spreads in general across the board, we're more in an environment of, you know, positive growth and maybe slowing growth but positive for credit. And then I think we kind of have a new game in town now where we have to consider the uncertainty of now policy uncertainty and now growth uncertainty as we move into this next quarter and the next couple quarters.
So we're definitely more cautious and defensive as we go through this environment. I think that, you know, just from a general overall risk perspective, you know, credit spreads have, investment grade credit spreads have widened, but they haven't widened back to their long-term averages. We're a little inside of that.
And I think we ultimately will probably move a little wider to reflect more of a long-term average, which is about 125 or so basis points for the overall credit index, and we're around the 115-ish range, you know, currently. High yield, for example, sold off a lot more. It should sell off about 3 to 1, but it sold off a little more, you know, 3 to 1 times versus investment grade credit, but it's actually sold off a little more, and it's trading more to long-term averages of around a little over 400 basis points, additional spread pickup in the high yield space.
So it's more in line with kind of the market sense. And I think that's, as Anthony talked about, the uncertainty on growth, you know, are we going to have a shallow recession, are we going to have just slightly positive growth? That uncertainty is going to remain for the next couple of quarters.
And so, you know, with that, we're definitely have moved up in quality. You know, David Walthard mentioned up in quality in the front end, so we've really, really all of our investment grade strategies on the platform, we've moved up in higher quality BBBs into single As, we've reduced our high yield exposure, and we've also kept our duration. We're roughly trying to target a little more of an overweight for overall duration for some of our strategies, but now we're really closer to home and really maintaining more of a neutral posture in this uncertain economic and interest rate environment in the marketplace.
And then I think from a sector perspective, we're definitely, we moved from an overweight to neutral financials to take advantage of all the new issue supply that's coming. And really, consumer cyclicals I mentioned, we were cautious there, so autos, the retail sector, we're definitely more cautious there, energy, we're more cautious in that sector. I think these are all sectors that are going to be, could be potentially additionally more adversely affected as the tariffs come through, if they do come through, to what magnitude.
And we're really favoring more of the defensive sectors like the consumer non-cyclical sectors and industrials, the utility sector, really more historically defensive sectors to kind of park money for the clients in those types of sectors to weather kind of the storm that is probably upcoming over the next couple quarters. So that's kind of our overall view on credit, and then from a curve perspective, we still like the belly of the curve for just the attractive roll, you know, the attractive yield pickup, and if rates do eventually fall, especially in the front end of the curve and the treasure curve continues to normalize, we'll take advantage of that with the positions grabbing that yield for a little longer in time. So with that, I will pass it over to Patrick to talk about the multi-sector strategy.
Yeah, thanks, David. And I would just mention in recent weeks, and as mentioned on the last call, those of us on the multi-sector desk have been maintaining our call it cautious posture to credit markets, as mentioned by my colleagues already on this call, but have been a bit more constructive in terms of our bank on rates and duration. And rates consider the 10-year now trafficking closer to 430, it's about where we were one month ago, and similarly trading quite close to the level observed around election time in November.
Admittedly, of course, there's been choppiness and heightened rate ball along the way, and at least some of it very recently, more technical and orientation you'd contend versus fundamentally driven. But effectively, we've oscillated in this range between 4 and 4.8% on the 10-year and now tracking relatively close to most of the moving averages. Meantime, the two-year has made a more stark move lower year to date.
We've seen 50 basis points of declines there as the market's priced more normalization on the policy front. And consider that since the first of the year, you have implied Fed funds for the rest of 2025 conveying two more 25 basis point cuts than what was originally believed again at the beginning of the year. In turn, you're now operating with a modestly steeper curve, and that's benefited our portfolios given our relative positioning.
We're still apt to believe that we're in this range-bound market, and that's likely to persist, with a general continuation in the downtrend due to increasing weakness in economic indicators, eventually feeding from what we've already seen in surveys and soft data into hard data results. And in general, we're observing already economic surprise indices that have been falling and are squarely in negative territory, and we're apt to believe that there will be a collective refocus on more of the fundamental side of the market. In terms of credit, last call we did mention reducing higher octane exposures out of an abundance of caution, and that's something we continued to do into early April as we saw support for those sectors diminish somewhat.
So to be specific, removing higher beta, high yield preferred, and EM positions in lieu of just treasury exposure. Given a now healthier backdrop for spreads and, of course, higher all-in yields, that caution is waning somewhat. But we're not yet ready to dive back in wholeheartedly, given demand for credit, which had been such a tailwind, has recently conveyed some weakness, understandably.
You're seeing delinquencies on consumer loans remain elevated, with subsegments of the U.S. consumer base still under rather significant pressure. Month-to-date credit vol and skew have both dramatically moved higher, lending to, on the one hand, interesting opportunities in credit derivatives, but on the other, it's consistent with a market that's increasingly seeking to hedge fat tail risk. And then lastly, credit spreads generally have a distaste for environments that are marred by uncertainty, and I think the ongoing trade dispute would certainly qualify, and it doesn't seem destined to end in the immediate term.
So for now, we're content to await further catalysts on both fronts before materially altering our composition of portfolio, at least as related to rate and credit risk. With that, I'll turn to David Michael with more clarity on emerging markets. Thank you, Patrick.
Overall, risk tone for emerging markets continues to be set by President Trump and tariff-related headlines. This has also contributed to a rotation trade, resulting in a weaker dollar. In the risk-off tone move over the last month, emerging markets spreads widened by 45 basis points.
Combining that with U.S. Treasury move, this left emerging market total returns negative over the last month. Emerging market hard currency debt has outperformed similarly rated U.S. corporate debt on a year-to-date basis, as well as the last few weeks.
Emerging market currencies have held up well versus the dollar, which can provide emerging market central banks with leeway to cut rates, if needed, to manage a potentially lower global growth environment. In Argentina, the IMF announced that it reached a staff-level agreement on a new $20 billion deal, paving the way for Argentina to allow its currency to transition to a more flexible exchange rate. After this announcement, Argentina dollar debt rallied close to 7.5%, while the Argentine peso blue chip swap exchange rate rallied over 13%.
Ecuador held its second round of elections, with Daniel Naboa winning by a much larger margin than was implied by polls, which were projecting a 50-50 scenario. Naboa won by well over 10%. On the election results, Ecuador rallied 25%.
We view a cautious approach towards Ecuador due to uncertainties around this lower oil price environment and really what that means for the Ecuador economy. In Turkey, in late March, the mayor of Istanbul and several journalists were arrested by authorities, which some view as a strategy to consolidate power and potentially prepare for snap elections. The Turkish lira experienced a large drawdown before stabilizing at down only 3%.
The central bank has reserves to manage the currency's stability, and the central bank remains hawkish. In an unscheduled meeting, they hiked rates and again today hiked another 350 basis points. Emerging markets outside of Asia generally avoided high reciprocal tariffs, and even before the 90-day extension.
Debt issued by Asian countries should be supported by strong external positions and lower oil prices, as most of Asian countries import oil, and that should help offset some of the impacts of tariffs. Emerging markets should continue to benefit from a global reallocation trade, and this underpins our positive forward-looking stance for emerging market asset class, as we see market volatility as an opportunity to add exposure to emerging market debt. Now let me hand it off to Ryan Nugent for an update from our Muni team.
Thank you very much, David. As most of my colleagues have mentioned, what a wild ride we've been on for the last few weeks. You know, in Muniland, we saw highs, lows, and intraday moves we haven't seen in many, many years.
One day, we saw the Bloomberg Muni index off 2% for the day, only to rebound the following day with a 2.94% daily gain. What I think is very important to remember is that the volatility over the past week and a half lies in tariffs and taxables. Munis are followers in this move, really just along for the ride.
For the last month, we have had our own struggles with elevated supply and reduced tax time but this was all exacerbated by the movements of the greater economy. While municipal credits have become challenged in an economic downturn, or will become challenged in an economic downturn, the sell-off wasn't related to credit or Muni fundamentals. Before we kind of dig in, I want to give a quick kind of data check on where we stand.
You know, currently, as of the close of April 16th, the municipal AAA scale from TM3 is a 305 on the 2-year, 318 on the 5-year, 349 on the 10-year, and a 449 on the 30-year. As of last evening's close, the Bloomberg Municipal Index currently sits at a return of negative 1.55% for the month and negative 1.77% for the year. However, we are at or near our cheapest ratio to taxables over the last year in the 5, 10, and 30-year spots, with ratios approaching 80% in the 5 and the 10-year and 95% in the 30-year.
I think one of the key things to stress in all of this is to constantly being engaged and actively engaged in this market. Over the last week and a half, we've purchased over 650 million bonds up and down the curve as we have found value in this volatile market and reinvested tax loss requests. However, the problem with Muni rallies is that the sell-off had primary deals being pulled from the market due to the uncertainty of borrowing yields, so investable options shrunk, followed by very limited secondary bond offerings that supercharged last Thursday's rally.
Primary deals that were pulled last week have made their way back into the market this week, given the more stable moves in Muni rates. I believe a small amount of equilibrium has kind of been found here. We've been seeking for this for a little while now, and the forced selling and bid-wanted are down, the forced ETF selling is down significantly.
Now we're left with closely monitoring the primary supply in the near term as we get past the tax time outflows that we typically see during this seasonal time frame. We have experienced five consecutive weeks of negative fund flows paired with above-average supply over that same period. This led to a weak performance before the global tariff sell-off affected Munis.
Important to remember, we're now out of the woods with tariffs, and it'll be a volatile market in the near term. What can help us out? Really balance new-issue supply, helping us kind of establish levels.
But the amount of that new supply could pressure the market. Supply is still higher than what demand can meet. We may have to wait until heavier reinvestment flows that we typically see in May, June, and July.
We're expecting about $28 billion in May, $36 billion in June, and $38 billion in terms of that reinvestment flows. What are we doing? We're spreading our barbell out a bit.
As the curve settles in and becomes more efficient, we are still favoring the front end, the one to three-year area, paired with the 15 to 20-year area. However, in this volatile market, it's better to take a best-opportunities approach, looking for credits or structures or spots on the curve that stand out without specifically holding yourself to what that previous day's total return curve said. Opportunities are there to be had across the curve.
Absolute yields remain elevated, and as of late last Friday, we have been able to add names like New York City Transitional Finance Authority, 5% in 2045 at a $4.95 yield, or New Jersey Transportation Trust Fund bonds, 5% in 2046 at a $4.99 yield. However, as I mentioned in another FAA call about a week ago, duration management remains a large percentage of what we do or don't do based on the day. Please remember, the volatility in this market does affect the duration of your portfolio.
Index OAD, or Option Adjust Duration, on the close on Friday before the sell-off was a $6.38. The Bloomberg Muni Index Option Adjust Duration pushed out on Wednesday to a $6.75 and now currently sits at a $6.59. Unless you closely monitor this, you may be taking more risk than you think you are.
So, to close, I want to stress the volatility over the past week and a half lies in tariffs and taxables. Munis are followers in this move along for the ride. We may have to wait until after tax time to get the wind at our back, but the asset class or the credits are not the reason for the recent volatility and weakness.
During this, we'll be searching out best opportunities across the curve, as market dislocations are real and they present many different opportunities. Best options are the driver until we settle in here. Having said that, back to you, Anthony.
You talked about the wild rides, the highs and the lows. When the market's moving that quickly, can you just talk a little bit more to the team's stance on managing through it? You talked about this duration trip.
So, you're at target duration on Monday morning, but by Friday afternoon, you are off it. Is there an impulse to do something, or is your impulse to sit back and do nothing and let this thing ride itself out? I would say it's a little bit of a balance of the two, right?
I think that in any sort of prolonged sell-off, you need to be very much aware of the dispersion of the portfolios within the strategy and constantly look to, let's say, rein them in. On a day-to-day basis, are we doing this? Yes, but day-to-day movements probably aren't going to be the biggest driver for us to do Very simply, as many people know, municipal bonds, typically longer than 10 years, are issued with a 10-year call.
That's kind of the norm. As that bond matures, the 10-year call becomes a 9-year, then an 8-year, and so on and so forth. When you tend to own municipal bonds with shorter calls, they are much more violent moves in terms of the duration of the portfolio and then the contribution of that to the portfolio.
They're not bonds that we shy away from. We like them. We think they offer benefit, but you need to be aware of how they're affecting your overall duration of your strategy.
I would say that we probably don't make moves based upon day-to-day. We look at it over the course of a longer period of time, but we want to make sure that each portfolio accurately represents the returns and risk of the overall strategy. That's important to us to really find those outliers for any number of reasons and make sure that we can obviously buy or sell bonds if they're longer or shorter than what our strategy deems.
Great stuff, Ryan. Thanks very much. I appreciate it.
No problem. Good question, Eli. Appreciate it.
Okay, we're going to end it here. What I would just say in closing, clearly, I think you can hear a general sense of a precautionary tone in all of our opinions and comments. I think volatility is clearly going to be here to stay.
Upping credit quality is, again, I think the stance that we've heard for some time here. And then also duration neutral. I think you can also hear that we're not really extending in here by any such imagination just because we are seeing elevated levels.
So I think let's be cautious. And then lastly, I'd say continue to utilize the resources that you have, whether it be here in the asset management team to talk to privately about individual portfolios or even with your clients around the phone with clients all day long. So please continue to utilize that.
So with that, just a quick thank you to the team for a great call here. I really appreciate it, everyone. And everyone else out there, please stay well.